【討論】留學生的感覺

[fetters_904 10]

或許是不夠堅強吧....

總是覺得心中少了一塊，我會想念台灣

之前爸媽曾帶我到過澳洲兩三次，

卻在去年年底時告訴我，要我到澳洲留學....

很想念台灣吧....

放棄了台灣的學校，勇敢向澳洲邁進，

我沒有那種勇氣...

去接受那種未知的未來

[MikiRei 10]

Then don't come, maybe? If it isn't your own will to go overseas, you're not going to be happy when you get here. Sort out your feelings and ask yourself what it is that you want - not what your parents want.

[cj2340 10]

該怎麼說呢..

我也是半強迫來外國讀書的

雖然來了一年

但對家鄉的思念

對自己的迷惘

及對自己雙重國籍的矛盾

猶如擺不去的累贅般扯著我

[ManUtd 10]

其實, 開始上學, 渡過前三個月就沒事了. 人的適應能力, 遠遠超過你的想像. 加油.

[chocdumpling 10]

其實我在國外過的超快樂的！

:D

留學很好呀！

[ManUtd 10]

我覺得留學最難過的一段時間反而是出國前那一個月.

回想起當年的情況; 在一切都就緒, 只等著上飛機的那幾個星期, 開始對未知世界及未來感到害怕. 也對早已熟悉的環境感到不捨. 那時天天心中在想: 我從來沒有去過英國, 在那裏一個親人及朋友都沒有, 如果我沒法子在那裏生活怎麼辦. 如果在學校上課及考試都用英文, 我沒法子通過怎麼辦? 沒法子交到新朋友怎麼辦? 遇上壞人怎麼辦?

種種問題及未知的情況充滿腦中. 反而開始覺得自己是沒事找事, 在台灣過得開開心心的, 為什麼幫自己找麻煩去留學呢? 出國的那天一步步來臨, 心中的不安也隨之加深, 到了要出國前的一個星期, 真的開始產生了不如放棄, 留在家裏的想法. 之前的興奮感覺全都消失了, 只有緊張及不安.

我只能說, 也許我是幸運的, 當初想到的可怕情況, 一件都沒有發生. 但是那種恐懼的感覺卻確實的被我記得. 沒有經過那一段克服恐懼的過程, 則我們沒有法子成長. 當我們發現我們克服了之前覺得完全不可能做到的事情, 我們才會了解不能逃避的道理.

沒錯, 在每一次的第一次之前, 很多人都會害怕, 都會恐懼, 我也是一樣, 第一次過海關, 第一次註冊, 第一次上課, 第一次交作業, 第一次考試, 第一次論文........總是或多或少會一種沈重的感覺. 但是現在的我知道我可以去克服那些東西. I know I am better than that. 那是因為, 我走過來了.

留學確實對我而言, 整體而言是件很開心的事情, 我記得大二時, 有天和另一個台灣來的同學坐在馬路邊的咖啡座, 享受著下午的英國陽光. 我同學和我說: 你不覺得我們很幸運嗎? 老實說, 光是那一刻的感覺, 就值回票價了.

這就是克服恐懼而得到的回報.

[bambino 10]

我在國外住過1年~~在外面呢 大家要團結點

會突然很想家

[DisposableDoll 10]

你爸媽還帶你去過兩三次呢... 我第一次踏上這塊土地的時候我爸媽只陪了我兩三天就飛回家了...

不知道為什麼並還沒有特別的想家, 只有在遇到挫折的時候猛問自己 '幹麻自己找苦吃, 大老遠跑來這樣値得嗎?'

大家一起加油囉, 我同意ManUtd (你是曼聯的支持者!?) 說的, 人的適應能力, 遠遠超過你的想像, 當你被給予這樣的問題去面對的時候, 你會很驚訝自己的毅力的

[MikiRei 10]

Man. You guys make me want to start an "Immigrant Children" thread but I don't think there's enough people here to do so *sigh* >_> At least most of you don't need to go through a cultural identity crisis *grumble* :p Kidding. *runs*

[ManUtd 10]

呵, 這個站是台灣站呀, 會來這裏就表示還是認同自己是台灣學生(雖然人在海外). 許多移民的孩子都已融入當地的社會, 有些連中文都不太會了. 他們有自己當地的社群及活動. 自然就不會來這裏了.

不過我個人是很願意看到有類似文化衝擊及身份認同的討論串在這裏出現. 大家可以分享一下此類的心得及看法. 別忘了, 在國外待久了. 說不定下一代就會有雙重國籍了. 大家也許出發點或經驗各自不同. 但是這個議題, 也許離各位並不那麼遙遠, 也許在不久的將來, 就是個切身問題.

支持MikiRei開新版討論身份認同問題.

[andrew0704 10]

你們爸媽都有先跟你們過去 = =

我都自己飛著就過去了...... ha

雖然是自己想去 但是說不想台灣是騙人的

台灣的小吃 食物....到了那邊發現 好好吃喔!!!!

o...我在Canada.....Victoria... 四季如春 但是

吃是一個問題啊:'( :'( :'(

也許快改變了吧 七月底就要去Ontario

時間好快 > <

希望大家出國的時候 可以多多成長自己吧

對自己也算是一個挑戰

會變的更加獨立

祝福大家 cross fingers

[MikiRei 10]

台灣的小吃卻是會令人環念. 我住這裡住在久, 回台灣時一定會馬上衝去吃米糕, 肉丸 etc.

這裡雖然有但還是比不上台灣做的好吃. (阿媽的就好吃了. 但也偶爾幾次而已)

呵, 這個站是台灣站呀, 會來這裏就表示還是認同自己是台灣學生(雖然人在海外).

I didn't know that this site existed (don't hang around much Taiwanese people) until my cousins told me about it. Intrigued me so I started coming here. It's also one way to fend my mum off from complaining that I don't have enough Taiwanese friends = =|||

許多移民的孩子都已融入當地的社會, 有些連中文都不太會了. 他們有自己當地的社群及活動. 自然就不會來這裏了.

Yes....I wouldn't have come here if it weren't for my cousins. It is a shame that most ABC's don't understand Chinese anymore. Most start to pick it up again in university but that's already too late. Parents should be more persistent in forcing their children to speak their mother tongue and make sure it's enforced to the next generation. I know some people who's ancestry's Russian and they're like, 3rd generation already and they can still speak their ancestor's language purely because their family are persistent and enforced it as part of their daily life. (shhhh....I know I'm typing English here. I'm too lazy to type Chinese ^.^;;;)

說不定下一代就會有雙重國籍了

There's actually another problem to that. For immigrant children, we're still more or less attached to our home country, reason being, it IS our country of birth. We did spend some time of our life there before migrating. For children who are BORN overseas, in other words, born in a different country as to their parents, most tend to not feel as connected to their "mother" country as an immigrant child would. One of the best arguments I hear from Asian kids who're born here is, "Well, I'm in Australia and I'm Australian and Australia speaks English. What's the point of me speaking Chinese?" I feel so sorry for the kids when they say that and a little angry towards their parents for not being persistent. In fact, many parents, when they migrate to another country, they seem to want to let their children improve their English as quickly as possible and to do that, they speak English to their children at home as well. As if school isn't enough practice and in 3 years time, the parents then realise that their children can no longer speak Chinese. That's when they go, "Oops!" but all too late. >_>

[ManUtd 10]

看了MikiRei的回應. 我覺得感觸很深. 老實說, 我以前的英文很爛(當然現在也還是很破^^). 但是我身旁有一堆唸美國學校或住在美國的朋友及表兄弟姐妹. 那些人開紿彼此之間說英文時, 我根本就好像消失了一樣. 因為我聽不懂, 我也不會說.

小時候的我常想, 如果我也有那樣子的英文環境就好了. 因為在台灣, 會英文似乎就好像在十五世紀時的英國會說法文一樣. 那可是upper class的語言呀. 尤其是那種好似有卷舌一般的美國腔. 呵呵. 會說英文好像比會中文要棒好多.

不過後來有幾件事情影響了我的感覺.

案例1

有一次在父母的某位朋友家作客. 他們家的公子當時年約十歲. 就讀台北美國學校. 他們家裏是說中文, 所以這孩子說話時變成中英加雜. 在一起玩一些玩具時, 他把他的軍隊設定為美軍. 然後說 We American army 如何如何(基本上, 是在攻打"台灣軍")......由觀察他說話的神情及內容, 我開始了解到, 雖然他生活在台灣, 但是在美國學校的教導下, 這個孩子其實心裏完全認同美國是他的國家. 這也許沒什麼錯, 因為他確實是美國公民. 但是他對台灣這個他的血緣上的故鄉及成長的土地, 以及他同時也擁有的中華民國身份證, 是什麼樣子的看法? 那就耐人尋味了. 我相信他的中文將會很破, 可能完全沒有寫書及閱讀的能力, 只有聽力及很有限的口語對話能力. 我希望我的孩子也這樣子嗎?

案例2

多年前生平第一次去紐約時, 借住在我姑姑的好朋友家中. 他們家是雙薪小家庭, 來自台灣父母都在聯合國總部工作, 大女兒已赴外州唸大學, 不在家中. 就讀當地中學的小女兒則同父母住. 這位二千金在學校十分活躍, 是排球校隊(沒錯, 人高馬大), 而且一如大部份的華人第二代子弟, 功課十分優秀. 但當時正處於叛逆期吧. 在他們家借住的那一星期, 這位二千金幾乎獨來獨往, 專注於學校的功課及球隊練習. 回家就把自己關在房中作自己的事. 且對父母親的問話十分不耐的樣子. 好像不太想理他們. 當然父母親因為有工作, 早出晚歸, 他們回到家大多都已經是晚上七點之後. 親子相聚的時間本就不多. 週未時, 父母親要求孩子去上中文課, 但是女兒卻覺得她已經很忙, 不太想去. 於是母女二人就開始用英文"討論"起來了. 顯然女兒認為學中文是增加她負擔的麻煩事.

確實, 對一個美國中學生來說, 她可能實在沒有法子了解中文對她而言有什麼用途或意義. 如果說只是因為那是父母出於對中國傳統"不忘本"的關係的期望<-------一個受美式基礎教育及美國社會觀念長大的小孩子, 在強調個人自由的原則下, 可能根本對此理由無法認同. 反倒覺得是一種壓迫. 問題是, 我希望我的孩子變成如此嗎?

老實說, 現在的我, 寧可我的孩子在好中文環境中成長, 而不是好的英文環境. 這和中國強大, 中文的份量提升無關. 而是因為中文事實上是一種哲理. 而英文強在作為一種工具(英文表達意思比中文精確得多). 中文的難度也比英文要高. 如果不是從小使用, 中文很難半路出家去學好. 但是英文, 太多的學習方法及資源利於學習. 要將英文練到可以日常使用的水準, 相較於中文而言並不因難. 因為如果孩子一生只有一張母語的語言學習王牌, 我會希望讓它用在中文上, 不論是從文化上, 成本上, 或是實際上的考量, 先中文後英文再其他語言都是最合理的, 至少我是這樣子認為.

也因此, 現在的我會希望我的孩子, 不論有沒有外國護照, 都能在台灣, 讀台灣的學校(而非外僑學校), 完成至少到國中的教育. 再考慮出國唸書的事情.

[MikiRei 10]

確實, 對一個美國中學生來說, 她可能實在沒有法子了解中文對她而言有什麼用途或意義. 如果說只是因為那是父母出於對中國傳統"不忘本"的關係的期望<-------一個受美式基礎教育及美國社會觀念長大的小孩子, 在強調個人自由的原則下, 可能根本對此理由無法認同. 反倒覺得是一種壓迫. 問題是, 我希望我的孩子變成如此嗎?

I'll tell you a bit of good news. Most of these kids, by the time they end up in university finally realised why their parents wanted them to learn Chinese. University has a larger crowd and hence you get in touch with a lot more people. They then meet up with other Asians of their peers who DIDN'T lose their Chinese. Suddenly, they realise they've missed something and that's when all of them start enrolling into Chinese classes to learn Chinese. It's a shame people's world view are MUCH more narrow when they're younger. This is why I say that parents should be persistent. Push them, force them, maybe at least EXPLAIN to them why you think it's crucial for them. They'll come to realise eventually though I still advise that parents take the time and patience to EXPLAIN why they think it's important. My dad did (he did so as soon as we got to Australia). He told us that China will eventually be powerful and Chinese will be a very powerful language to have under your belt. What's more, what's the harm in knowing more than one language? Made sense to me at the time so I bought it. Not to mention, I love the fact that I can say something in class and your teacher and classmates have nooooooo idea what you're on. Of course, many of them complain to me and tell me to speak English (especially when I start doing maths in Chinese). I just ignore them. They don't know what they're missing. :p

小時候的我常想, 如果我也有那樣子的英文環境就好了. 因為在台灣, 會英文似乎就好像在十五世紀時的英國會說法文一樣. 那可是upper class的語言呀. 尤其是那種好似有卷舌一般的美國腔. 呵呵. 會說英文好像比會中文要棒好多.

I find this ideology funny even to this day. Reason being, it gets reversed. Go back to Taiwan and people know you can speak English, they go, "Oh! You're so smart!" Come back to Australia and people know I can speak Chinese, they go, "Oh! You're so smart!"

Me: ...............................

*shrug*

也因此, 現在的我會希望我的孩子, 不論有沒有外國護照, 都能在台灣, 讀台灣的學校(而非外僑學校), 完成至少到國中的教育. 再考慮出國唸書的事情.

I personally want to send my children to Sweden. In fact, Northern Europe. Education there is top notch. Taiwanese education, in my opinion, is still inflexible, too much emphasis on rote learning and lacks the encouragement of individual expression and critical thinking. Both Australian and American education are all going downhill (blame it on the politicans). In fact, these days, home-schooling seems like a welcoming idea indeed. Most home schooled kids enter university by their mid-teens and why not? Education and your pace to attain it should be your own freedom. Following a curriculum that brainwashes you and takes away any individual uniqueness you could possibly possess is the last thing I want to do to any possible children of mine.

On another note, your concern is people's Chinese standards may be low if sent overseas or to an English speaking country for too long. That depends on the children and parent themselves. My brother came to Australia when he was eleven years old. As of current, his English still has a tiny bit of Taiwanese accent but nonetheless, his English is more than fine. His Chinese is definitely excellent due to his constant browsing of Chinese websites (more so than I do) and reading Chinese novels. (金庸跟古龍全背的滾瓜爛熟) There's also the easy access of Chinese books within the premise of our own home (we have quite a library in fact) and of course, the undying love of manga. ^,^;; My personal opinion is, one should get in touch with as many environment and culture as possible for an opening of horizon. As an immigrant child, I'm happy and proud that I'm able to view things in as many perspective as possible. Fine, I may be tilting towards the Western side for having spent too long here but there are many things that I see in the Asian point of view (thanks to my parents and my connection to Taiwanese media and websites - hurray for internet) that most of peers don't see (much to my annoyance though I've come to accept that). However, the point is, the difference is in the will of the person and their ability to see past what is presented in front of their eyes (the environment and the culture that resides in it) and to be able to gather resource beneficial for what they stand or what they want to achieve.

If say, the emphasis is on achieving sufficient amount of practice and usage of a particular language, then it matters not WHERE you get the education. Language can be honed WHEREVER you may be so long you have the will. I personally will choose for an education system that allows flexibility and wide range of choice (for subjects that is) whilst doing a good job at TEACHING every single one of them. (In fact, I will for an education system that gives students a large amount of PERSPECTIVE. Different angles in viewing a situation. A larger WORLD view. Living and knowing only one microcosm is too much of a shame when one lives in a world full of new ideas to explore) Of course, this doesn't exclude language. The ultimate school will be if they allow every single language to be taught and used on a daily basis. That'd be mad! It's a pity how the world is as it is right now and we're forced to make choices that benefits us in the long run WITHIN THE CURRENT SOCIAL CONTEXT that may not necessarily be a good thing to begin with.

Hmmm...I think I may have lost the plot.

Yes...I think I lost the plot. *exits*

[ManUtd 10]

個人覺得MiKiRei的回覆十分有道理. 也十分的全面. 實在非常讚同, 也覺得從中獲益良多. 不過看看我那小三出國的表妹的中文.....有時我也不是那麼有信心呀. 還好她聽說流利就是了. 不過她那個年代沒有那麼發達的網路, 相對的, 她的家長也沒有堅定的要求中文程度. 這是另一個要考慮到的原因. 我相信現在的小孩子, 會有更多的機會讓自己的中文維持在一定的水平.

個人想就接受初級教育的地點上, 再對針一點個人的想法作些延伸. 想把孩子留在台灣的原因是, 其實我覺得台灣的教育本質上並沒有太多的不好. 只要除去那個最致命的升學考式準備部份. 台灣的某些作法其實可以讓基礎打的不錯, 尤其是數學及國文. 而且台灣仍然保留了最完整的中國文化. 這點很重要. 文化的基礎是很難在遠距學習的. 語言其實是小事. 文化才是大事. 我知道語言學習可以不用在任何地方存在, 但是文化學習, 不能沒有環境. 而中國文化如此博大精深, 我沒法子在異鄉複製呀. 他要真的以為清高宗是陳家洛的哥哥, 我會三條線的(這是玩笑話), 主要是, 我不希望孩子對中國歷史的了解來太過片面的自於三國志電玩或金大師. 他們是好的工具, 但是我想要的是正統的文化教育.

但是話說回來, 台灣因為迷信填鴨, 在基礎通識部門雖能作的不錯, 但在預科及高等教育程度, 在15歲後真的要讓孩子發揮創造力及訓練獨立思考及critical thinking的部份. 台灣式的教育有非常嚴重的問題, 而且愈來愈功利及世俗化, 國際化的程度也相對較弱. 這一點是我會考慮在這一階段讓孩子接受外國教育的原因.

另一個原因是, 自身留學的經驗讓我深深明白種族歧視乃天經地義之事. 尤其在民族國家(例如歐洲), 當然, 個人不認為任何先進國家的法律或是制度上還有刻意的保留歧視規定(日本除外), 但是在人心的思想上, 這是無可避免的事情. 歧視並非一定是一種出於惡意的行為. 那只是源自於人類保護自己的本能之一. 在大多數的情況下, 異鄉人要吃點虧是一定的. 我認為這些東西, 孩子終將要學會去克服(不然一輩子躲在台灣就好). 但是在他真的去面對這些東西之前, 我想給他在一個自己的環境之中建立一些基礎.

另一點, 我深深明白家庭的重要. 所以我也不想把孩子在太小的時候送出去(數個本人了解的到某些英國的Boarding Shcool案例讓我了解到, 沒有東西可以取代家庭). 無論去哪裏, 我希望我的孩子不要太早離家去作小留學生. 就算留在台灣, 台灣的環境也有很多的問題, 如太過浮面的某些流行文化及日漸低落的媒體品質. 我需要在旁邊給孩子指引及建議. 還有培養他們的良好習慣. 這是在他們成年之前必要的監護職責, 我不能也沒有權力, 將這個責任及義務交出去讓別人代勞. 誠如MiKiRei說的, 語言可以在任何地方學習. 我的想法是, 讓中華文化及中文方面由環境及家庭一起努力, 英文的部分就利用先進的科技及資源吧. 天天在家裏放BBC應該有點小用...^^

anyway, who knows what will happen? they are just some thoughts of mine.

[MikiRei 10]

歧視並非一定是一種出於惡意的行為. 那只是源自於人類保護自己的本能之一.

Either that, or it's ignorance and the discomfort felt when being thrown out of your comfort zone. If we were all conditioned to live together from the beginning of our time with ALL culture and race, it would be a different story. It's a matter of being CONDITIONED due to your social context ie. environment. Of course, telling the entire world culture to change is not really an option. Maybe in another 100 years time when we don't need an airplane to go from places to places and can teleport instantly, we will finally be rid of this. This is why having an open-mind is important. You need to see past what is presented in front of you or rather, more often than not, what is forced under your nose. :p

Going back to being conditioned, from my own experience, yes, there are times we have to deal with racial stereo-type and possible discrimination, but I find that more prevalent within older generation rather than the younger generation. My opinion to this is due to the fact that most of us had lived amongst mixed races since we were born and so we're used to it. However, going back to my original point above, in order for us to be completely rid of racism, I think it'll take another 50 years or so - or 100 years - of conditioning and teaching people to not feel threatened of what is different but to accept and learn that there can be variance.

另一點, 我深深明白家庭的重要. 所以我也不想把孩子在太小的時候送出去(數個本人了解的到某些英國的Boarding Shcool案例讓我了解到, 沒有東西可以取代家庭). 無論去哪裏, 我希望我的孩子不要太早離家去作小留學生. 就算留在台灣, 台灣的環境也有很多的問題, 如太過浮面的某些流行文化及日漸低落的媒體品質. 我需要在旁邊給孩子指引及建議. 還有培養他們的良好習慣. 這是在他們成年之前必要的監護職責, 我不能也沒有權力, 將這個責任及義務交出去讓別人代勞. 誠如MiKiRei說的, 語言可以在任何地方學習. 我的想法是, 讓中華文化及中文方面由環境及家庭一起努力, 英文的部分就利用先進的科技及資源吧. 天天在家裏放BBC應該有點小用

I don't think I was gearing for sending your children out as soon as possible. Parents should be there for their children at all times. I've no idea what would have happened if my parents just threw me out here in Australia when I was as young as six. I still have my Chinese because of my parents.

----------------------

A bit of afterthought:

I think the two of us are gearing at two different points (or you're just simply pointing out your opinion and ain't really answering me anyways and I was self-centered to think that you were. :p). I'm speaking in general really and quite frankly, I'm not advising anything in particular eg. you should send your children overseas or send them to Western countries since it's better than something else blah and blah etc.

No, I'm not pushing for any of that. I'm not pushing for anything at all in fact. This was the reason I stopped in my last post because I reread your post and I realised we're going off different tangents. In fact, I don't even know which tangent I'm going off from. I was just ranting in general. :p

As I understand, ManUtd's opinion is that you would prefer to keep your children within your premise and within their mother country for the obvious reason of preserving heritage and culture. That's completely understandable and of course, there's no reason why you should sacrifice your own culture. If only, however, the country of your heritage appeals to your needs in EVERY aspect then everything will be perfect. However, that, of course, is never the case which was why I suggested home schooling. To REALLY get back to a COMMON ground (because I think you're posting under the point of what you would like your children to be brought up as), the following will be a few my own opinion as to how I might fancy bringing up my own children and their respective reason. (Man, this is sounding conceited. :p)

語言與文化方面, 當然, 保持自己的原有文化背景是很重要的.

不過, 我有一個想法.

世上文化那麼多, 有必要限自己於一個文化而已嘛?

當然, 想吸收所有文化只是我個人的天真想法. ^.^|||

撇開現有各國的教育制度, 我是希望可以有個多種文化與語言的學習環境, 在不縮小世界關與思想柔度與變通能力打好各相基礎.

Ahhh....but this is all wishful thinking and again, I'm generalising. I hate to be specific really because I like keeping open for new ideas. I suppose, to be really, REALLY personal, I'd like to have my children be multi-lingual. At the least, they'll have to know Chinese and English however, I'm more than happy to keep them up to scratch with other languages for example, French, German and Japanese (and yes, I've learnt all of those before - Japanese being my best). Latin, I think is a good language to teach because it is the basis of all European language and builds a good grammatical foundation for all European languages. As for Chinese, it's a good language to have that'll bridge you between other major Asian languages (eg. Japanese and Korean).

I don't really know where to have them grow up. I really don't mind where so long they have a formidable education system though I most likely will end up settling in Australia. However, home schooling is looking SOOOOOO welcoming to me these days. One of my lecturer home schools his daughter. His oldest one, 11 years old, have finished Australian year 10 maths, knows perfect English, French and Spanish and is currently being taught Chinese (simplified unfortunately) and will eventually be taught how to program (because yes, this is a computing lecturer). That's better than any school can teach and hey! What's wrong in letting your children take it at their own pace? Education should be free and if they can take it faster then the set curriculum, I say why not? There's no need to waste their time waiting around for others. :p

Anyways, I think we're going off topic so *zips mouth*

[dynamics 10]

可是我好想出國喲

感覺在台灣已經沒什麼好混的了...

[ManUtd 10]

呵呵, 我一直十分同意MiKiRei的觀點呀. 只是廣泛的交換意見而已. 大部份的討論內容只是在陳述我自己的看法. 並非反駮任何您的看法. 因為我其實不覺得有我們二人之間太大的實質歧異之處存在.

當然, 不可否認的, 我們的各自成長的環境十分的不同. 不論我的英文再如何精進, 永遠都不會有我的中文的十分之一好. 但是MiKiRei在二者之間的平均可能就比我好上不少. 自然, 看東西的角度會受自己經驗的影響而有差異. 更別提我們是各自在用自己最擅長的語言在發言. 而我們彼此對對方使用的語言的理解也可能有誤差存在. 不過, 我想要強調的是; 我完全沒有覺得您有在Pushing anything. 我一向相信, 在此刻更是如此, 我們只是廣泛的在交換意見及看法, 並非是針對任何特定議題在進行辯論.

這個大原則建立了, 則我可以針對我的幾個觀點的原因再進行更深入的說明:

其實在哪裏受教育及家庭是有密不可分的關係的. 因為父母親如果要和小孩在一起, 孩子受教育的地點當然需要考慮到父母親的工作地點的問題. 只是這一點在上文中我沒有說得那麼明白. 因為一方面我確實覺得回台灣的機會較高, 另一方面; 我也不確定是否真的是會有那個機會回去台灣. 所以我才說: who knows?

說到文化....哈哈, 我確實有中華文化優越感. 只要有時間, 別的文化也可以用時間去學習. 但是我覺得如果需要一個作起頭, 那麼中華文化最好的.正是因為交化的多元, 永遠不可能有人貫通這個世界上所有的主流文化. 所以要有個頭, 換個角度, 有個本. 若是作為父母, 我認為中國在文字, 哲學, 宇宙觀, 社會觀, 及藝術觀上有很大的優勢, 而且都有一個十分完整的體系. 這樣子的整體性, 是目前其他新興文化所不及的(可笑的是, 若不出來喝些墨水, 我反而沒法子理解這個祖宗們留下來的優點). 基於對於中華文化的信念, 我不要我的孩子只是會中文而已, 那很可惜. 至於別的文化方面, 小孩子有他的一生去吸收及體驗, 要去接觸哪些, 那是他的決定, 不是我的.

至於歧視這點上,....我不覺得歧視好或不好, 講句不好聽的, 在別人的土地(定義這點有點難就是了)上被歧視是再自然不過的事情. 小如台灣, 本外省客家原住民之間也就有歧視問題. 只是顏色外表這種最明顯的東西最容易Pick up而已. 世界並不公平, 也不平等, 只要差異存在, 歧視問題就不可能被消除的. 連小小的深藍都要明文禁止學校歧視了. 被明文禁止的原因, 代表確實它存在, 我們可以不讓它在版面上出現, 我們沒法子約束在每位會員的心中都不存在....... If I am allowed, I could assure you that discriminations will never be eliminated, no matter what. It is a human nature and it will last until one of the last two people on the earth dies provided the other is not schizophrenic.

基上以上想法, 個人覺得: 完全防護這種對異類的排斥心理及其產物, 實際上不太可能, 或多或少都會有. 而且也不必要, 因為孩子將來總有一天要去參與這個東西(被人排斥的同時, 排斥另一些人). 沒必要讓他活在無塵室中(事實上也作不到), 但是, 我希望可以作到在一定的時間, 於一定的範圍內減低最嚴重的情況發生的機率. 這是個人想讓孩子在台灣受基礎教育的另一個原因.

無論如何, 讓孩子留在台灣, 無疑有代價, 很明顯的孩子在單一文化的環境下成長, 將來對於多元文化的衝擊將會比在"較"多元文化環境中成長的孩子為差. 台灣的生活環境及社會安全保護, 也是有不如人的地方. 這些缺點確實存在. 而且在一個境環中其實都有. 台灣對我個人而言, 我比較有自信作判斷. 我對台灣的判斷可以有八成的自信, 相對於在英國, 我的自信可能會降到個六成左右. 如果是美國, 會再降低到五成左右. 較高的自信來自於對社會的了解及資源的充份度. 換言之, 這是我可以針對這個環境的缺點作出對策的效率及可靠程度. 這是我選擇時的重要參考.

不過其實, 還是一樣的觀念, 任何事情沒有標準答案. 講個搞笑點的作例子: 如果我要我的孩子中文都英文不錯, 我該讓他上英文學校然後在家裏說中文, 還是上中文學校然後在家裏說英文???.....這種東西本來就沒有一定的答案. 每一個決定及作法都是trade off, 都需要其他的不同措施來配套. 也要依照實際的情況來加作變通. 只是在孩子還小的時期, 他無法自己作精確的判斷, 那是父母在這一段時間中需要為孩子作決定的. 這是一個責任, 我需要作最針對自身情況最佳的決定, 其他各位也是一樣. 我完全同意MikiRei的另一點是, Home Schooling 確實也愈來愈像是一個最可能被考慮的作法. 但是我仍然不知道如何克服群育這部份. 個人相信文明的一切的價值都來自於人所組成的社會, 所以這部份超級重要而不能放棄..... 目前的想法是自己開辦學校. 不過, 那可能弊多於利. 應該還有更好的方法. 仍在思考中.

個人提出的想法, 只是大略的看法, 提出來作討論的方向. 但當然不是真理. 不同的人, 不同的情況, 會有不同的考量, 也會產生不同的偏好. 但是討論就是這個樣子, 需要有些標的物. 否則沒法子產生交焦及焦點. 但是個人相信, 只要大家都放開來討論, 這個議題一定會十分的有義意. 而這是正我所期望的. 是否離提....嗯.....也許, 不過, 這版的流量比較小, 還有機會多聊聊也不錯呀, 對不對? 別走啦.

[ManUtd 10]

可是我好想出國喲

感覺在台灣已經沒什麼好混的了...

如果你目前就讀高中, 會有這樣子的感覺是因為你的年紀差不多到了台灣教育體制優勢的極限了. 除去語言因素, 在大部份的情況下, 你目前學校的高中教育會讓你在國外的大學學習中佔到不少便宜. 許多台灣高中生出去留學, 常能獲得極高的評價.

但是; 假設以不斷升學為前題, 如果你進入了台灣的同等級大學再受四年高等教育, 之後出國讀研究所, 台灣高等教育的劣勢就會讓學生本人整體的優勢變得不那麼明顯了. 尤其在博士階段. 台灣的高等教育在自然科學領域上因為數理底子打得深. 效率高, 在基本功上可能還能與國外一流大學畢業生為之一拼. 如果是社會科學, 因為在獨立思考培養及社會科學研究方法上的軟弱(台灣沒有一流的社會科學研究基礎及背景), 出去幾乎是被人壓著打. 在文學及藝術, 哲學等等領域, 台灣的大學表現及研究水準也不突出, 基本上和社會科學學門的問題相同.

研究所中的社會科學台灣留學生常提出來的問題是: 老師上課怎麼都沒講什麼??? 殊不知, 在研究所領域, 學生在經過大學階段的訓練, 早應已具備有自學自修的獨立學習能力. 老師上課只是啟發, 並非傳授完整的知識. 他只介紹議題, 但是他不會去作深入的講述. 因為真理如何, 學生要自行判斷. 學習的場所, 不在課室, 而在圖書館的書本及論文之間. 在大學以上學堂中, 沒有對和錯的分別. 只有辯證的過程完備及深度的高下之分. 台灣學生大多習慣於受老師的權威指引及複製式的學問學習. 在這種場合下, 很難有效的展現出自己的創見及研究能力. 自然吃虧.

再者, 台灣目前高教面臨經費嚴重不足的問題. 加上各校的經費分配常以硬體建設為主. 這會讓台灣高等教育面臨嚴重的問題. 在下一位朋友為澳洲博士畢業, 指導教授在該領域世界知名的大師級人物. 且他已有著作在一流期刊發表. 是一名極為優秀的學者. 他本有心回台任教, 結果國內領頭的大學竟以: 研究方向不夠"實務"為由所拒....該名朋友只好留在澳洲的大學任教. 其任教學校之世界排名比任何一間台灣大學都為高, 且提供的薪水為在台倍數以上且上課時數極少, 可以專心進行研究....台灣的學術競爭力, 就在這些小小的個案中, 一點一點的流失了.

[MikiRei 10]

我確實有中華文化優越感

我覺得是中國人都會啦. 5000 years of culture, history and civilisation vs. whatever the rest of the world is (yes, there are older cultures but we're the longest surviving one).

If I am allowed, I could assure you that discriminations will never be eliminated, no matter what. It is a human nature and it will last until one of the last two people on the earth dies provided the other is not schizophrenic.

Maybe you're right, maybe you're right. Humans will forever find SOMETHING to disagree upon I guess. *sigh*

如果我要我的孩子中文都英文不錯, 我該讓他上英文學校然後在家裏說中文, 還是上中文學校然後在家裏說英文

This is why multilingual school s would be AWESOME. (However, maybe a new type of culture or language would arise - a mixture of the whichever languages they're using at school. I think that's why Singlish exists)

目前的想法是自己開辦學校.

An idea that's looking more and more favourable to me by the day. XD

My, this topic is getting very interesting. Lots of thanks to you, ManUtd. You've made this thread a pleasure to read. :p

[JeansArgentes 10]

當初我的朋友都認為我瘋了....（其實..我自己也這麼覺得）

高2的時候開始陷入掙扎...畢竟留學要花很多錢...我想很多人也都經歷過這個過程

最後讓我下定決定的原因有兩個...除了那時候追尋自我的狂熱以外...另一個...則是大部分擁有強烈藝術特質的人...都會和台灣教育發生極大的衝突...而我也不例外...所以我的成長歷程並不順利...也並不很快樂

放下考試升學的念頭之後...可以創作的時間突然變得更多了...一年的時間全力投入藝術...取了幾件覺得最好的作品...最後收到義大利寄來的入學通知

到目前為止..其實沒有孤獨的感覺出現過...同學們都是很特別的人...而且才華氾濫...無聊的時候就故意讓自己迷路在巷弄裡...看到感動的景象就馬上放到紙裡

在地球的另一邊找到台灣沒有的東西...這或許就是留學的意義？

[布兒瑪 10]

其實, 開始上學, 渡過前三個月就沒事了. 人的適應能力, 遠遠超過你的想像. 加油.

應該渡過前一個月就差不多了開始所謂留學蜜月期 到處玩什麼的一切都很新鮮 然而再來你又會開始有壓力了 要面對現實了,..學校的考試 英文課跟不上 升大學的煩惱....

[Hazelunt 10]

來的第一個月的新鮮期,過的真的很快,接下來要面臨的壓力,卻走的很慢,還有所謂的思鄉期啊...留學生固然令人羨慕,但背後也有沈重的壓力啊.....來個一年,英文還是一樣差...慘T_T

[ManUtd 10]

思鄉期是很正常的, 看過很多這樣子的例子. 我班上就有一位伊朗同學一直在說想家. 不過回想起來, 我好像完全沒有很明顯的思鄉期. 哈哈. 可能我比較異常.